check the chromosomes and allow competition fairly. I saw a lot of birth anomalies as a neonatal nurse it is sad but they can take that up with God when they get there not win gold medals with an unfair advantage
So, here's my (what I consider common sense) view: Cellular biology trumps all: XX and XY dictates whether one is a male or a female. The physical manifestations (or lack thereof) of each individual's body is irrelevant. That some people have disorders of sex development means nothing. It may mean something to the outward appearance of a person, but doesn't change the biology of the manifest physical strength differences. I would ask EVERYONE who champions the notion of allowing biological males to compete against females, and vice versa this question: if biological sex doesn't matter, why do we NEVER, EVER, EVER, see a female-to-male trans person or an XX female with sex development disorders competing against biological men??????
It's unfortunate for these people -- since while they're likely getting a boost up versus females, the way their bodies produce testosterone and other hormones, they likely lack the strength of a normal male.
That pretty much closes off serious competitive sports for them, in addition to their difficult-to-imagine problems. Growing up can be hard, but with the additional burden of deformity, gender confusion, school sports and showers, dating, infertility, and so much more ... it's hard not to have immense sympathy.
I have immense sympathy for them when they DON'T compete against women, when they accept that sometimes life deals us a shitty hand of cards and we have to play those cards as best we can WITHOUT CHEATING. Not only do I have ZERO sympathy for those cowards that compete against women, I have the utmost contempt. They deserve nothing less. Although, I have more contempt for those that enable them. Sorry to sound so angry, I hope you don't think I'm expressing it against you.
I totally understand that response to people declaring themselves male, then boxing.
But I can't get to "contempt" for these people. Imane Khelif wasn't given some genetic testing in Algeria growing up. She looked like a girl, was raised as a girl by her parents and everyone around her. She'd lived -- and competed in boxing -- for many years before any of these questions arose, even competing in the Tokyo Olympics. In her head and the head of everyone around her, she's a woman.
Imagine being told, at age 24 after you've pursuing your dream, as a woman, since you were a teenager, "Oh, this genetic tests says you're actually a man."
I understand why competing against females is wrong, as should the IOC, but I can't build up any anger at this person who knew she was a woman her whole life and is now playing by the rules the Olympics have determined.
I am going to speculate that the genetic test may have given him confirmation of how he felt his entire life. And from what I know about those disorders, which granted is not much, I also suspect that he was born without a vagina, and perhaps even has a very, very, almost non-existent penis, but something that clearly is not a female vagina. Oftentimes, parents in that situation (with children who have that disorder) choose the sex for their child where it is less likely to cause emotional harm, vis a vis being mocked as a young boy or teen male with a micro penis. I could be wrong, I would love for medical experts on this substack to weigh in. And I apologize for being so argumentative, I just can't help but think that both of those men didn't know or at least suspect that they were not normal "females".
Very sad the IOC said, "We can't come up with a perfect standard, so we're just gonna close our eyes and make countries pinky promise to not lie about their female athletes." Obviously, no solution is perfect for intersex people, but you can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. The IOC, in typical fashion, is just trying wash its hands of any responsibility so now the poor athletes who just followed whatever rules were given to them are getting all the heat.
Yeah, I tried explaining to a few of my friends, that yes, I agree these people shouldn't be competing, but this issue is way more complicated than either side is saying it is.
This decision is not hard. Does anyone really believe we just "happened" to have two genetic males at the top of the female boxing competition? This smells more political than scientific or even common sense, given that they were disqualified by other competitive boxing organizations, as have thousands of others been disqualified for a whole slew of factors. This is an elite competition, and genetic testing, as well as testing for performance enhancing drugs, is the way to determine who competes. Yes, Michael Phelps had a completely natural advantage on top of his competitive work ethic, and that's life, but he would never be considered to compete in a women's race. So if we're really going to split hairs with cherry-picked definitions, why not just eliminate all sex and weight classes for all athletic competitions, and watch how quickly women's sports are eliminated?!
check the chromosomes and allow competition fairly. I saw a lot of birth anomalies as a neonatal nurse it is sad but they can take that up with God when they get there not win gold medals with an unfair advantage
Well stated.
I think they ought to simply stick with are you XX or XY ?
So, here's my (what I consider common sense) view: Cellular biology trumps all: XX and XY dictates whether one is a male or a female. The physical manifestations (or lack thereof) of each individual's body is irrelevant. That some people have disorders of sex development means nothing. It may mean something to the outward appearance of a person, but doesn't change the biology of the manifest physical strength differences. I would ask EVERYONE who champions the notion of allowing biological males to compete against females, and vice versa this question: if biological sex doesn't matter, why do we NEVER, EVER, EVER, see a female-to-male trans person or an XX female with sex development disorders competing against biological men??????
This makes sense.
It's unfortunate for these people -- since while they're likely getting a boost up versus females, the way their bodies produce testosterone and other hormones, they likely lack the strength of a normal male.
That pretty much closes off serious competitive sports for them, in addition to their difficult-to-imagine problems. Growing up can be hard, but with the additional burden of deformity, gender confusion, school sports and showers, dating, infertility, and so much more ... it's hard not to have immense sympathy.
I have immense sympathy for them when they DON'T compete against women, when they accept that sometimes life deals us a shitty hand of cards and we have to play those cards as best we can WITHOUT CHEATING. Not only do I have ZERO sympathy for those cowards that compete against women, I have the utmost contempt. They deserve nothing less. Although, I have more contempt for those that enable them. Sorry to sound so angry, I hope you don't think I'm expressing it against you.
I totally understand that response to people declaring themselves male, then boxing.
But I can't get to "contempt" for these people. Imane Khelif wasn't given some genetic testing in Algeria growing up. She looked like a girl, was raised as a girl by her parents and everyone around her. She'd lived -- and competed in boxing -- for many years before any of these questions arose, even competing in the Tokyo Olympics. In her head and the head of everyone around her, she's a woman.
Imagine being told, at age 24 after you've pursuing your dream, as a woman, since you were a teenager, "Oh, this genetic tests says you're actually a man."
I understand why competing against females is wrong, as should the IOC, but I can't build up any anger at this person who knew she was a woman her whole life and is now playing by the rules the Olympics have determined.
I am going to speculate that the genetic test may have given him confirmation of how he felt his entire life. And from what I know about those disorders, which granted is not much, I also suspect that he was born without a vagina, and perhaps even has a very, very, almost non-existent penis, but something that clearly is not a female vagina. Oftentimes, parents in that situation (with children who have that disorder) choose the sex for their child where it is less likely to cause emotional harm, vis a vis being mocked as a young boy or teen male with a micro penis. I could be wrong, I would love for medical experts on this substack to weigh in. And I apologize for being so argumentative, I just can't help but think that both of those men didn't know or at least suspect that they were not normal "females".
Very sad the IOC said, "We can't come up with a perfect standard, so we're just gonna close our eyes and make countries pinky promise to not lie about their female athletes." Obviously, no solution is perfect for intersex people, but you can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. The IOC, in typical fashion, is just trying wash its hands of any responsibility so now the poor athletes who just followed whatever rules were given to them are getting all the heat.
Thanks Ken. This has quite a few of my social media friends (primarily evangelicals) quite literally twisting off into really angry rants.
Thanks, Guy.
It's easy to see where they're coming from, given what we've seen happen in so many women's sports competitions over the past years.
Yeah, I tried explaining to a few of my friends, that yes, I agree these people shouldn't be competing, but this issue is way more complicated than either side is saying it is.
This decision is not hard. Does anyone really believe we just "happened" to have two genetic males at the top of the female boxing competition? This smells more political than scientific or even common sense, given that they were disqualified by other competitive boxing organizations, as have thousands of others been disqualified for a whole slew of factors. This is an elite competition, and genetic testing, as well as testing for performance enhancing drugs, is the way to determine who competes. Yes, Michael Phelps had a completely natural advantage on top of his competitive work ethic, and that's life, but he would never be considered to compete in a women's race. So if we're really going to split hairs with cherry-picked definitions, why not just eliminate all sex and weight classes for all athletic competitions, and watch how quickly women's sports are eliminated?!
What bothers me is Professionals in the Games vs amatuers
any sport
Bad news
Aside damn TG stuff in Games